The Doubting Christian – Robert Beckford

This is from Allah, to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran Ch.2 v.79)

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby." (Qur'an Ch.2 v.79)

There is a theologian that my housemate and I were talking about, and I think everyone should check him out. Heralding a Pentecostal Christian background, Dr. Robert Beckford is a British theologian that has caused much controversy by his work on Christianity. You see, his more popular work deals with examining Christian beliefs that most Christians take for granted as being factual, and seeing whether those beliefs are validated by historical and archaeological evidence. What is even more interesting is that although he proclaims Christianity, he seems to disbelieve major doctrinal concepts of the Christian faith, such as the infallibility of the Bible, or the complete the story of the life of Jesus (AS) as we know it through the Bible. Personally, and with all due respect, I have doubt about his “Christian faith.” I wouldn’t be surprised if he later admitted to never being Christian. However, his work, at the very least, if not considered scholarly (as a lot of conservative Christian organizations try to say), is at the very least rather thought provoking. I am not saying that I believe everything he says – I don’t. However, a lot of what he says are based of facts which you cannot deny. As a Muslim, I found it refreshing that the Muslim perspective of the Bible find some support from Christian, or at the very least, non-Muslim, research. Of course, I am not asking anyone to just accept his words. That would be stupid. I am proposing that everyone watch the 2 documentaries whose links you will find below, and do your own research. God Almighty rewards honest Truth-seeking with Truth. So go and seek Truth.

Who Wrote the Bible?

As a Muslim, I believe in the corruption of all previous revelations, and that the Qur’an is the only infallible divine scripture we have today. Therefore, the general idea of this documentary is appealing to Muslims. We don’t necessary agree with the specific theories presented, but it is enough to validate our doubts about the Old and New Testaments. This is probably the most well-known documentary by Dr. Beckford, and appeared on Christmas Day, 2004 in the UK on Channel 4 (nice timing, eh?). It is approximately 2 hours long, according its website.

Part 1/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r7IKdTngIc&hl

Part 2/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW_X9pkvtXA&hl

Part 3/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEq-On2FuCc&hl

Part 4/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NRnr1wW5cU&hl

Part 5/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4-J_bp70A&hl

Part 6/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH6Ayyzh3QQ&hl

Part 7/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mczbw18LCRg&hl

Part 8/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xu0kYLvUJo&hl

Part 9/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npQolF_isLE&hl

Part 10/10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw6tlSwWgwA&hl

The Hidden Story of Jesus

This is a bit more controversial documentary in my opinion because a lot of what is presented here doesn’t coincide with the Islamic accounts of Jesus (AS). However, it is only fair that I present it here for everyone for purely acaedemic reasons. Take from it what you feel, but be honest with your feelings. This documentary also appeared on Christmas Day, 2004 in the UK on Channel 4 (more nice timing), and is probably also 2 hours long (I can’t remember).

Part 1/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhef6wa2Mpc&hl

Part 2/11

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=stke9Dp2YLQ

Part 3/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1_fcDiosjQ&hl

Part 4/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtONEzcD8vU&hl

Part 5/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaIt2y0Yjwo&hl

Part 6/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltZltysPz5A&hl

Part 7/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqRN_8oq8M&hl

Part 8/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG3EiMGetTI&hl

Part 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw_L7H1GfEE&hl

Part 10/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EA0pBj6bfg&hl

Part 11/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV6ydg23Sec&hl

There are much more by him, but these are the only two I have authority to post, since these are the only two I have watched. However, a simple Google search should give you more by him. Please watch them and post your comments. And more importantly, do you own research before you resolve to your own conclusions.

– Farhan R.

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~ by Far7anR on November 19, 2008.

35 Responses to “The Doubting Christian – Robert Beckford”

  1. what i find so interesting about the islamic faith is that you will simply believe that the Q’uran is infallible when i would say a good 50% of more of the content of the Q’uran is taken directly from both the old and new testaments. And if you believe God doesn’t make mistakes in his revelation, then surely he wouldn’t have made the mistakes you believe He made in the books that inspired Mohamad so profounly. Maybe you guys need to start questioning the origins of your holy book and investigate the political and social reasons why it was written before you questions Christianity

  2. Hey G,

    With all do respect, I don’t really care what YOU think of the Qur’an, nor should you care what I personally think of the Bible – what we should BOTH care about is what is the TRUE Word of God Almighty, and the evidence for it. You haven’t shown any evidence, and even if you did, I can probably refute everything you bring. Have u even read the Qur’an, or are you regurgitating what the media or your peers or your hater websites put out? Don’t be afraid to use your God-given intellect!
    As for the previous revelations, we believe that God Almighty sent them down to the respective messengers, but man has corrupted the revelations over time – hence, the need of a newer revelation. The last revelation to be sent down was the Qur’an, and none will come after it. It is complete, perfect, and infallible, in every sense of the word, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I have done extensive study of the history of the Qur’an AND the Bible, and I think it is YOU who should take a second look at your own religious text. I still haven’t heard you bringing evidence of the invalidity of the Qur’an, nor have I heard you refute anything that was shown on the documentaries by Robert Beckford. Talk is cheap – show us the Truth if you think you have it! If you cannot show us evidence, then consider all the signs and evidences of Islam!

    – Farhan R.

  3. all i need to say to you, concerning the infallibility of the qu’ran, is that muhamad was a man, therefore he was also untrustworhty, if you’re gonna use that line of logic. Secondly, i think God knew that he was choosing the right people to write His book.please don’t call in God’s omniscience into question. He got it right the first time. All i can say is that in 2corinthians 11:14, thats a book in the new testament, St Paul says “even Satan can appear as an angel of light”. Seeing that muhamad saw an angel of light, who suposedly gave his revelation, which has majour contradictions with the new testament, such as denying Jesus’ divinity, I think you should consider who was behind the message of the Qu’ran. enough said

  4. oh, and I can’t prove that the qu’ran isnt ” complete, perfect, and infallible, in every sense of the word” jst in the same way that NOONE can prove that God himself, and I’m not talkin about his creation, exists. He is supernatural, as are his methods of communication with mankind, so lets keep this arguement theological and not emperical.

  5. Hey G,

    First and foremost, I would like to honestly thank you for being willing to exchange a few words in a civil manner. I hope nothing I say or do offends you to such a degree that you’ll refrain from visiting or commenting.

    As far as Muhammad (SAW) being a man, you have to realize that he took no role whatsoever in the writing the Qur’an – we Muslims believe that it was the literal Word of Allah (SWT), the “Kalamallah,” if you know Arabic. This is quite different than how Jews and Christians view the Bible – you guys believe your revelations were actually written by man, but inspired by God Almighty. However, the Qur’an wasn’t inspired by God – it is the literally His Word. The concept doesn’t seem to exist in the Judeo-Christian tradition, except perhaps the original Ten Commandments from Mt. Sinai, or maybe even Jesus Christ himself, though the latter example probably is a stretch. We view the ahadith to be comparable to the Bible in that both are records written by man.

    Second, you say God Almighty knew who he was choosing – so then why do you doubt the possibility of Muhammad (SAW)? Who are you to assume that God didn’t choose him? Besides, regarding the point you were making – Muslims don’t believe that the prophets themselves changed the revelation. Oh no – on the contrary – I think Muslims hold the prophets to a higher regard than the Jews and Christians, as you would know if you ever read the Qur’an. It was later on that others changed it, forgot it, etc. We have documented proof of this phenomenon – look up books by Bart Ehrman, Raymond Brown, Robin Lane Fox, and of course, Robert Beckford…by the way, have you seen the films yet?

    As far as Muhammad (SAW) being deceived by Satan…I can turn it around and ask the same of Paul. After all, it WAS Paul who preached to totally abandon the Law and introduced the whole Trinity concept…sounds like Satan succeeded in misleading Paul to me…and actually, I have already written an article on exactly what you are implying:

    https://yearningforislam.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/was-muhammad-saw-truly-deceived-by-satan/

    You say that the Qur’an denies certain parts of the Bible, as if the Bible is assuredly 100% the Word of God…you assume to much, and that is the fallacy of your logic. The Jews would say the same to both the Qur’an AND the New Testament. The divinity of the Messiah is not really found in the Old Testament, unless you try to make the connections yourself in order to justify your beliefs…

    Lastly, you can indeed prove that the Qur’an isn’t infallible – find an error, contradiction, difficulty, whatever. I bet you I can refute every single “problem” you find. Can you speak with the same confidence about the Bible? Also, personally, I believe that I can indeed prove God Almighty exists, or else how can He hold us responsible for not believing in Him?

    – Farhan R.

    P.S. – Yes, I know what Corinthians is, haha…I AM familiar with the Bible, you know, or else I wouldn’t be knocking it…

    P.S.S. – Sorry about the essay – I just have a lot to say I guess…

  6. yes you did write alot so i can only comment on what important points you made which i can remember. Your last comment about proving the existence of God by Him being able to hold us responsible for not believeing in him is straw man argument. If you are basing God on what he has written, then you are wrong to argue in this line of logic as it can easily be refuted by saying men have through the years making up a God and what he says and then writing these words in a book. You are right that i can’t prove that muhamad wasn’t another mesenger of God, however I can see by the way he lived that he could not have been from God as he didn’t live a life like Jesus did, which was pleasing to God, with his numerous wives, killing christians and hating Jews.. God in the old testament said that whoever blesses the Jews will be blessed, or do you new refute what Moses said? I believe that man is fallible and can corrupt, however don’t you think that God would have chosen who he wanted to write his books carefully, and let us not forget that the Jews are incredibly devout to guard and preserve the authenticity of their scriptures by not allowing lay people near them? Only Rabbis through the ages have come into contact with the true scriptures. Moreover, if you believe that the qu’ran came directly from God, then what part did muhamad play in it? why was he even needed at all, and why is he a huge focus of the qu’ran? why couldn’t God have just given it to Him and not written so much about him, simply addressing it to mankind? and why is it that after Jesus allowed the adulterous woman in John to “go forth and sin no more” preventing her from being stoned to death, does Muhamad then command that women should be stoned to death, that looks like a contradiction in Gods plan to me, and the fact that only the woman is commanded to be stoned to death in the Qu’ran, just shows me that whoever wrote it is just another woman-hater trying to implant their personal beliefs in their surrounding communited. Personally i don’t believe that God needed to re-dictate his whole plan to your prophet,He can see all things. Jews and then Christians, or reformed Jews, were doing fine before Islam came along. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law, the law of love, where in the qu’ran does it talk about true love like Jesus does? God is the God of love, in both the Old and New testament, so how and where does the Qu’ran reflect this? When Jesus fullfilled the prophesy of the prophet Isaih of dying as a sacrifice for sin, the ultimate burnt offering, then why is it that Muhamad was needed? To me he just couldn’t have been necessary in God’s plan, nor was he prophecised about.
    I have watched the docs’ you have posted a long time ago, and i can safely say that beckford is not orthodox in his beliefs, although his hypothesise are interesting and thought provoking, aimed at peeople such as yourself who love to reaffirm their apriori feelings about christianity. If you come with a good point beckford makes which you think can absolutely refute Jesus being the chosen one of God and the fullfilment of the law (i am dislexic so my spelling is crap i know) then i will come with the scripture to prove it wrong or reconcile it with what beckford says.
    ” For God gave his one and only begotten son, that believing in Him we should not perish but inherit everlasting life”
    God is a forgiving God, a loving God, and he takes back all those who have been lead astray. He loved you enough to sacrifice what was precious to Him, the most sinless man on earth, to act as your salvation. What Jesus did on that cross is the meaning of true love, nothing and noone, no matter how interesting or powerful it appears that they say, can come close to his actions.God Bless you

  7. i should also add that Paul didn’t change the law, he spoke about a new covenant, a new way, which God authorised. There is no use of the word “trinity” in the whole of the new testament, that was actually a concept invented by the Catholic Church. It was Jesus himself and other Bible writers who talked about their being a holy spirit, the spirit of God. People then saw that, seeing as Jesus is part of God, God must have three facets, or three extensions of his being, which are God the Father, God (in) the son, and God the holy spirity which equals 3 facets. AND that is NOT to say God is three separate entities, it only means that he extends his power and goodness further than his being in heaven, these extensions being his word being acted out in the holy life of Christ, and his power here on earth in the form of the holy spirit. hope that helps you in you understanding

  8. Hi G,

    I’m sorry, I think you misunderstood me when I said that I think that it can be proven that God Almighty exists – I was responding to your comment:

    “in the same way that NOONE can prove that God himself, and I’m not talkin about his creation, exists.”

    I only meant to say that I He CAN be proven to exist, that’s all. I didn’t intend it to be a straw man argument for anything. The Scriptures are not the only sign that He has left for us to reason out His existence. In Islam, we use Nature, History, and Scriptures as signs. As for Scripture, it isn’t just “believe it because it says so,” first we have to ascertain that a certain Scripture is divine in the first place – only then do we believe it. It is only after you are convinced that the Qur’an is the Word of Allah (SWT) that you start believing it – or else, as you said, who are we to just randomly believe a book that could be nothing more than mythology?

    Next, you assume that Jesus (AS) is the only prophet that you can compare Muhammad (SAW) to, but if you were to compare him to other Old Testament prophets, I think you would be singing a different tune. King Solomon (AS) allegedly 700 wives and 300 concubines (a harem of a thousand women), and they actually seduced him into idolatry (1 Kings 11:3-4) – do you reject the Song of Solomon or the psalms attributed to him? The Judge/Prophet Samuel told the Israelites to slaughter all the Amalekites – men, women, children, even animals (1 Samuel 15:3)…do you reject Samuel and his books? Asaph called for the wrath of God Almighty on the heathen – an attitude common among the Jews, some of whom consider themselves better than the Gentiles (this can be seen as bigotry)…so you reject Asaph and his psalms? Please, don’t use double standards with Islam. By the way, no where does it say to just kill all Christian and Jews in the Qur’an or Sunnah.

    No matter how much you deny it, we have physical and textual proof that the Bible has been altered…we have to documentation! The Jews changed it, and Christians changed the New Testament…look up the authors I told you about – I gave you evidence, so why don’t you provide me evidence? Because of the corruption of the Bible, I don’t know what to accept and what to reject from the Bible. I don’t reject Moses (AS) or anyone else, but I don’t know what is authentic and what is a fabrication. Also, Muslims DO bless the Jews – 5 times a day at least, in our daily prayers…I bet you didn’t know that, did you? I don’t know where you get the idea of Muslims hating Jews…the media isn’t reliable, you know.

    Muhammad (SAW) was basically a mouthpiece. Allah (SWT) used him to speak to humanity. Also, the Qur’an spoke about general principles – the traditions of Muhammad explained those principles and how they should be applied. For example, the Qur’an said to pray 5 times a day, but the tradition of the prophet teaches us HOW to pray. Sure, the Qur’an sometimes addresses specific people, but there is usually a universal principle being taught. A lot of the time when the prophet is being addressed, all of humanity is being addressed as well by implication.

    God Almighty first said to punish the adulterer, and then He changed His mind and said to let them be. YOU tell ME why He changed His mind in the first place! Why should I have to answer to you – Islam just restores the Law back to what God Almighty mandated. How can you ask such a question? Even more, PLEASE show me where it says that only women get stoned, PLEASE! I BEG of you! That is absolutely crazy! It’s only in the Bible where women get punished for things like that, not in the Qur’an. For example, if a women is found to not be a virgin on her wedding night, she gets murdered (Deuteronomy 22:20-21). Sounds like some rabbi had a bad experienced, and so he decided to get his revenge on future women…

    The Qur’an doesn’t talk about love? I mean, honestly…have you even opened a Qur’an before? I see more love in the Qur’an than in the Bible, hands down. I see a lot of hateful vengeance in the Old Testament, and a lot of fairy tales and wishful thinking in the New Testament. Just because the New Testament says this and that doesn’t make any of it true. It’s all just wishful thinking, most of which makes no logical sense at all whatsoever. Jesus (AS) didn’t fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah, because Isaiah wasn’t even talking about the Messiah half the time! Christians just want those to be prophecies, but not even the Jews read those verses as prophecies. Also, the Gospel writers wrote their respective gospels so that it sounds like Jesus (AS) fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament – they added it in! The advent of Muhammad (SAW) was even foretold in the Bible! For example, Deuteronomy 18:18-19 talks about Muhammad (SAW), not Jesus (AS), especially not if Jesus (AS) is actually an incarnation of God Almighty. Look it up – I don’t want to go into details right now due to time constraints.

    I never said Beckford was orthodox – actually, if you ever read my disclaimer, I said that I think he was weird. I am not using him as an example – I was just trying to present the information found in the documentaries to everyone.

    “For God gave his one and only begotten son, that believing in Him we should not perish but inherit everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

    Did you know that some versions of the Bible exclude “begotten” from the verse? They say that it is an interpolation. Some of the versions that exclude it include the New Living Translation, English Standard Version, New Century Version, New International Version, the Holman Christian Standard Bible, etc. So is Jesus (AS) the begotten Son, or not? What does that even mean? We will never know, because its all just a big corruption.

    If you want to be forgiven by God Almighty, repent and do good, just like Jesus (AS) supposedly said to the adulteress in the Pericope Adulterae – did he tell her to accept him as her Lord and Saviour, that he was one person out of a Triune deity? No.

    As far as Paul – New Covenant, Old Covenant, call it what you want – Paul changed everything. He introduced the idea of the Trinity – even if he didn’t use the exact word. Without Paul, there is no Trinity in the Bible. What ever you say, you get three beings, entities, persons, manifestations, whatever. The fact of the matter is that the “three” shouldn’t be there in the first place.

    Looking forward to your response, miss, and sorry again for this novelization.

    May God Almighty guide us both.

    – Farhan R.

  9. Well first of all, I don’t even think it is apropriate for you to bring my sex into this, callin me “miss”, why do you feel the need to bring my gender into the conversation? isn’t that rather stereotypical of you being a muslim…being so gender biased??

    Secondly, I’d like to say that all over the world women are stoned to death under the laws of islam for not being a virgin before their wedding night, even if they are raped!!how injust is that? NOWHERE in the law of moses does it set such a command so unjust, moreover in the books of moses both male and female adulterers are punished, NOT jus the woman like you tried to add was only in the Bible and not the Qu’ran.

    I do NOT take all of my information from the media, i liv in a part of the world where they are many muslims,some of which in the past i have befriended, and the male muslims i have spoken to HAVE hated the jews. In fact, nearly every single muslim i have talked to about this dislikes the Jews. I would also like to add, that you guys spend half ur time arguing that the only source of knowledge about islam and its followers that we westners get is from the media, and that this is so unfair. However, you then do things which jus propogate those myths, proving them right. For example in Baker st, london a few years back, when muslims were parading past the regents past mosque threatening to BEHEAD those unbelievers or “kaffir” of islam. AND may i add, i was there, so this is an eye witness account. maybe if Muslims had more of a reputation for being a loving and peaceful people, people might sit back and actually listen and absorb what muslims believe in.

    With regards to the old testament prophets such as King Solomon, no i do not regect what they say, i simply see them as being meer human beings who made mistakes like the rest of us. That is not to discredit their beautiful writings, it just mean i simply don’t take them as my “lord and saviour”
    Yes, you are right, Jesus didn’t forgive the woman and then tell her to accept him as lord and saviour,but he did say that “no iota of the law shall come to pass until all is fulfilled” He was the fullfilment of the law, and that implies that we should follow HIM now, not the law, because his example of love is the embodiment of the law “treat thy neighbour as thyself”.Those who still follow the law are under the spirit of religiosity and are prisoners of the law, just as St Paul remarkers. if what you believe is that he lived after death like we do, then it is coherent to believe that he appeared in an apparition to St paul telling him how he wanted his church to be run, and seeing as Paul carried on in the same tradition of love as did Jesus, i think we should listen
    That is not to say that there are some christians that live their life in accordance with Christ’s teaching only, which is probably enough to get by in life anyway!
    Finally, about the whole documentation surrounding corruption in the Bible, i think you should look at your own book, and watch “The Qu’ran” aired on Channel 4 in 2008, just google it and you’ll see there are people not only interested in tearing down the divine legitmacy of the Bible but also of the Qu’ran.

    With regards to the books you recommend me, I don’t take my information from Bias sauces, and if i were to investgate the historical accuracy, fraud etc in the Bible, i would go to the scholars who have researched it their whole lives and are neither atheist of christian!
    regards

  10. oops and i meant sources not sauces haha

  11. Dear G,

    I’m amused at your blatant accusations of sexism. I would take offense, especially since my reference to your gender was nothing more than an attempt at courtesy. However, I realize that your head is probably filled with anti-Muslim propaganda, and who knows what fallacious stereotypes you have floating through your head. I simply thought that you might prefer to be called “miss” rather than “dude.” It takes true bias/ill-wishing for a person to hear a line of politeness and interpret it as something defamatory. Rest assured, I really don’t care whether you are a male, female, black, white, purple, etc. I don’t know about you, but my religion teaches against such prejudices. If you see Muslims not living up to the standard of Islam, take it up with them – but instead of using the disobedient Muslims to label all of Muslims, why not learn about what Islam really teaches?

    Nowhere does it say in Islam that a bride who isn’t a virgin on her wedding night deserves to be stoned. I challenge you, G, to find me where it says that. I don’t care if other people do it in the name of Islam – people have raped and murdered in the name of Jesus, but that doesn’t mean anything. You must be confusing the Qur’an with the Bible:

    “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

    By the way, what exactly do you believe God Almighty intended to be the proof of virginity? I was under the impression that there is no surefire method, since even the hymen can break for a variety of reasons other than sexual intercourse…I wonder how many women got stoned to death for perhaps performing strenuous chores…?

    Read your Bible before you try to defend it.

    No offense, but I DO believe you get everything from the media. The media just shows you the ugliness of a people. I have never tried to get anyone beheaded, nor have I ever stoned anyone, nor have I ever built a bomb. I would rather sit at home and read the Qur’an and contemplate on Allah (SWT). Do you think Channel 4 would want to interview me, or some fanatical nutcase? Do you think BBC would do a piece about how I like to build my daily schedules around my 5 prayers, and my struggle to do so, or would they rather do a piece about how someone wants to commit genocide? Maybe you should open your ears to the peaceful Muslims in order to let them speak to you.

    As for your contact with the violent Muslims on Baker Street, etc., I cannot really speak for them because I don’t know their story. Many Muslims are unfortunately very rash and emotional. What they try to do with good intent ends up being rather uncultured and wild. The Muslim community is undergoing serious internal conflicts and change, and it is a turbulent, almost dysfunctional time for us. We are fragmented and disunited, and are trying to get up onto our feet. Also, many Muslims have forgotten the spirituality behind Islam, and have turned their Islam into a set of cold and empty rituals. That is a part of why I made this website – I want to be part of the transition that is bringing Muslims back to Islam. A lot of the issues are also a result of politics and economics, but instead of understanding the issues for what they are, many Muslims have turned their activism into religious fanaticism, and are doing things in the name of God Almighty that are really in the name of their country or culture.

    However, they are doing exactly what everyone else (including you) is doing – making judgments without proper understanding. These Muslims who have a limited and warped understanding of Islam sadly get most of the attention. However, don’t judge Islam by the type of media coverage it gets – the media just cares about ratings. Read the Qur’an yourself, and see what it teaches. If you don’t read it, then don’t judge it. The inability of a people to live up to a certain standard doesn’t mean the standard is immoral – it means the people are fallible. Look at your own religion – Christians RARELY ever live up to Paul’s teachings, but should I blame Christianity for that?

    As for the supposed anti-Jewish sentiments of Muslims, that all arises out of a misconception most people have that Judaism equals Zionism. These Muslims who “hate” Jews actually hate Zionists. The people of Palestine have been betrayed over and over again, and have been abused without consideration by Israel, and all the West does is turn a blind eye, while the rest of the world is to scared to get bombed by the US for trying to do the right thing. Is Islam against Judaism? No, and if you knew anything about Islam, you would know that. Is Islam against Zionism? If that means being against people who are oppressive, steal land, lie, cheat, manipulate, deprive people of their basic human rights and liberties, and, in just 22 days, slaughter 1199 Palestinians (including 368 children & 105 women) and leave 5300 injured, then yes, Islam is anti-Zionism. From what i understand, a plethora of non-Muslims are anti-Zionist as well, including many orthodox Jews themselves (like the Neturei Karta)!

    So you accept your prophets to be sinful, yet you reject my prophet just because you THINK he was sinful? Please tell me how that is not hypocrisy. Basically, you just don’t want to accept Islam because you have been conditioned to rather hate it and all its adherents than learn about the truth. You cannot find a single alleged crime of Muhammad (SAW) that has not been surpassed by a biblical prophet.

    You say I am a prisoner of Law? I say that YOU are a prisoner of Misguidance. Why exactly do you think Allah (SWT) made laws in the first place? Why were people ever punished by the law? Why did Jesus (AS) bother preaching about how to live life? Exactly how am I supposed to live my life? G, come on! You try to make me look like a prisoner, and make yourself sound like a confused kid (I don’t know your age, so if you are in fact young, that was purely coincidental – I have nothing against anyone of any age, gender, nationality, etc.). God Almighty gave us laws to live our lives the best way possible, by His wisdom. Even Jesus (AS) lived by the Law. Why should you not live by it, because the covenant was fulfilled? I don’t remember Jesus (AS) saying anything about that. You don’t even know how it feels to follow God’s Commandments and live in a way that is pleasing to Him. You just think that anything you do is fine because you are Christian, and that you don’t have to live by any law or moral standard; of course, then you end up living by Paul’s teachings anyways, because they are more convenient than biblical laws. Well, I am here to tell you that your poop doesn’t smell like roses, it smells like anyone else’s poop. That means that you aren’t “above the law,” no matter what Paul told you. Jesus (AS) didn’t even say anything of the sort – so why are you putting the teachings of Paul above the teachings of Jesus, your own God?

    As for the Channel for documentary on the Qur’an, I couldn’t find it online. If you can find it for me, I will watch it. However, I have already read reviews of it, and it seems to be just another Westerner trying to sound smart by talking about the Qur’an as if he knows anything about it. I have read some of the points brought up, and I find it laughable that anyone would actually falls for this garbage. I wish I knew how it felt to be so gullible, but I had once realized that Allah (SWT) gave me a rational mind with the intention of me actually using it, so use it I must.

    You still haven’t refuted Robert Beckford, which was the whole point of this post. That speaks a lot about you and Christianity in general, which is infamous of creating more questions and red herrings rather than answers. I have already verified what he presented on Megiddo, and am in the process of writing a post on it.

    If you want to learn more about the atrocities in the Bible, such as rape, murder, misogynism, etc., let me know. Even better, read the Bible yourself.

    Sorry it took so long to reply – I am a college student, you know, and college life is busy.

    – Farhan R.

  12. P.S. – I just updated my last comment, so you might want to read it again before you reply me.

  13. You have made some very good counter arguments, which i don’t really have the time to reply to, but i will just say a few things.
    Firstly, i do not feel sorry for reporting some of my experiences of muslims, that is both men and women, but mostly men, who have acted abusively to women who weren’t muslim women, because they believe all western women are whores, and ones who hate jews, simply for hating them, mainly because they believed the stereotypes that all jews were rich and therefore somehow bad people? well don’t shoot the messenger!

    Yeh you are right, u don’t know me at all, and when you said: You don’t even know how it feels to follow God’s Commandments and live in a way that is pleasing to Him. You just think that anything you do is fine because you are Christian, and that you don’t have to live by any law or moral standard; of course, then you end up living by Paul’s teachings anyways, because they are more convenient than biblical laws.

    I found this highly offensive as, dispite this theological debate online, and despite whatever theological arguments i have got into with muslims in the past, i treat them with the same love and respect Christ asked me to, and this doesnt mean i have to compramise my standards and agree with everything they say in debates

    About not following God’s law, actually, i try my hardest, and i say that as a fallible human being, and one that knows that some sin is done in ignorance, to follow his moral laws such as not stealing lying, killing etc etc. I say moral laws as, you may already know, we believe that when Christ died he payed the ultimate sacrifice, abolishing all sacrifishal law, hence the reason why we call him “the lamb of God”, and why in Isaiah the prophesy about him says that he is lead “like a lamb to the slaughter”. The israelites would burn offerings for God, mostly lambs and birds, but you probably already know that. Christians DO believe in preserving the moral laws, as you can see that is exactly what Christ did. AND we believe in Christ as a separate entity from God, not GOD ALMIGHTY himself, God extended his spirit into Jesus to give him the power to live a sinless life.

    I would also like to say that i do read the Bible, admitedly not enough, but i do think that when muslims read the bible you project your islamo-centric view onto it, which in my opinion is dangerous, in the same way a chirstian reading the Qu’ran would do the same.

    What you said about me taking whatever i know about muslims from the media is wrong. THE ONLY reason why i do give credit to some of those documentaries, is because i have witnessed the same behaviour of so-called muslims in real life as i have in the media. IF THE MEDIA WERE TO TELL ME THAT ALL RABBITS WERE WHITE BUT IN REAL LIFE I COULD SEE THEY WERE BLACK, I WOULD NOT BELIEVE THE MEDIA! please do not assume i am so very naive.

    I fully accept that there are many “bad” christians in the world, but to be honest i personally wouldnt even call them christians, and on the day of judgement Christ said he would turn those people away. “why do you call me Lord Lord when you do not do what i say” is a verse that you may be familiar with. I think “christian” is a title that can only be given to you by God when he knows that you are trusting in him and the teachings of his son completely. I ADMIT THAT I AM NO WAY NEAR ENOUGH A GOOD, TRUSTING FAITHFUL PERSON to be called a christian! that is something i have realised.

    I’d like to ask you an honest questions and recieve an honest answer: how much have the bible have you actually read, and which version did u read? yeh which version, because sadly that is an issue we’re having these days with the number of secular scholars translating the greek and hebrew into english and imposing on it their secular world views, even taking out words to paraphrase!

    Also, you are right, that i shouldnt have compared muhamad to old testament figures, as they have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. However, i was simply saying you can’t compare muhamad to Christ, becuase Christ resisted temptation and did live a sinless life, as far as what the bible says, and before you talk about what the bible says, il say that you believe that what the qu’ran says about muhamad should be your first point of reference, so lets skip that argument please.

    You said that i haven’t replied about Robert Beckford, but to be honest the way you have written your article doesnt imply you want a set of answers. You have simply made statements, and all i can say is that what would Beckford know, he doesn’t even trust in God to give him the right set of answers, he simply regurgitates what he learnt in unioversity instead of talking from his own faith.

    AND IF you are going to talk about the islamic documentary being a load of rubbish, and them being western and therefore not knowing a thing about what theyre saying, wel i can use exactly the same argument for Robert Beckford, Richard Dawkins, and all the other anti-chirst documenteurs that don’t even use scripture as their point of reference and simply impose their secular views on absolutely everything. EVEN a muslim, who believes that The virgin Mary was in fact a virgin, could call their works heresies!

    I have admitted that i am wrong on a few of my arguments, but you must also step off your high hourse and admit that some of your arguments have been misguided and wrong. I did try and find the documentary on the web before, but unfortunately, and this isnt a cop-out, i couldnt find it, as it was broadcast on British television about 2 years ago, and so unless you right to the publishers, you probably won’t be able to get hold of it. I DONT LIE so lets make that clear, there was a documentary and i did watch it. Moreover, the poeple talking of the Qu’ran were actually scholars of the Qu’ran, so you can either take or leave their opinions, they do know their stuff. The name of the documentary was “the Qu’ran”, so im sure if you can find the publisher theyll send it!

    Finally, I’d just like to add that to try and highlight the fallibility of God’s word in Deuteronomy does nothing for your own faith, seeing as the Qu’ran takes sooo many of the old testament laws. I AM going to read the Qu’ran in full, and im going to come back to you with some queries. SEEing as i can’t read arabic, i am going to have to read an english version, is that ok?

    To be honest with you, i don’t really know whether to trust that your reference to my sex wasn’t sexest, this just being based on the muslim men i know, blame them not me! But if it was well intended, i thankyou for your initiative not to call me dude!

    Maybe you are reading the Qu’ran in a very positive light, ignoring the “bad” verses, or what salman rushdie calls the “islamic verses”, TO THIS i say that you should absorb all, and not be like the hypocrit anglican church that only takes some verses of the Bible as being the inherent word of God and not others.

    No im not young, im 19, in uni like urself, but admitedly not as articulate as you, hope that clears things up. !

    God bless you G

  14. AND i fully acknowledge that i can’t spell! I hope it doesn’t ditract from my opinions! G

  15. Oh, and from your 2nd to last post when you say:
    The divinity of the Messiah is not really found in the Old Testament, unless you try to make the connections yourself in order to justify your beliefs…

    well, if you’re going to use that line of logic, i can also refer back to you comment you made about Muhammad being prophesised about in the old testament… you too are “making connections in order to justify your beliefs”. Please come to me with prophesies about Muhamad in the old testament, and i will probably also be able to refute them. I think we are on dangerous ground here when talking about God writing the Qu’ran, HE didnt take up a pen and write it himself, therefore it was subject to Man’s bias opinion and evil desires, if thats the line of logic you’re going to use on the Bible? ok wel im outty

  16. OH HEY hears a news report on the Qu’ran from youtube, you can probably find more there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtz1VtaEvN4

  17. just re-reading what you said before, wel im on a break, and i re -read this:
    Jesus (AS) didn’t fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah, because Isaiah wasn’t even talking about the Messiah half the time! Christians just want those to be prophecies, but not even the Jews read those verses as prophecies

    DONT you know that it was also prophecised by Isaiah that The intercessor for Sins, the one who would be put to death at God’s pleasure as the ultimate sacrifice, would also be reviled by his own people, I.E the jews? I DONT expect Jews to read the prophesies about Christ, the one they rejected, just as was prophecised, to read these verses in light og Christ because they do not want to. The Bible said that The messiah would come before the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, and he did! thats just one of many proofs that Jesus DID fulfil the prophecies. If you want more, please come to me and i will write them down for you! I’m just really sad that after 2000 years the jews are still denying their own messiah. fortunately, there are some messianic jews who have come to their senses.

  18. Peace be upon you.

    == I think we are on dangerous ground here when talking about God writing the Qu’ran, HE didnt take up a pen and write it himself, therefore it was subject to Man’s bias opinion and evil desires, if thats the line of logic you’re going to use on the Bible? ok wel im outty ==

    Quran is not literally written by God, but is literal words of God passed to Muhammad (SAW) and he passed it to the companions and others. These literal words are then immediately memorized by the companions and those who were around during the revelation of the sentences, which then pass it to many others who also then memorized the sentences, exact word by word. This goes on for years throughout the spread of Islam. This memorization creates a very large network of tahfiz (people who memorize) who can verify each other’s validity.

    After the prophet’s (SAW) death, the caliph Abu Bakar, which is also one of the prophet’s companion gathered other companions and qualified tahfizs to come out with a written archive of the Quran, to preserve it from loss. Each sentences went through a rigorous validation, requiring agreement from the companions and the tahfizs. The tahfizs also undergo background checks to determine whether they are trustworthy or not. The resulting product is what later become the basis of other copies of the Quran which we have today.

    You can read more about the preservation of the Quran here: http://www.islam101.com/quran/source_quran.html

    In Islam, we believe every prophets have miracles, and the miracles of past prophets were mainly miracles which were seen by eyes (raising people from the dead, healing, walk on water, etc). These miracles were then seen by people, and they tell others about it, and some wrote it down as testaments which (probably) later become the Bible. Testimonies of what people saw might, or might not differs with each other, and some might add their own bias opinion in it.

    Prophet Muhammad (SAW) however, was given a the greatest miracle which is heard, not seen, the Quran, which literally means, the Recitation. The prophet, where God put His words, in the prophet’s mouth.

    “I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken? when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:18-22 American Standard Version)”

    The Bible is a collection of testaments of disciples of Jesus (AS) and people who were around during Jesus (SAW) time. While the Quran is the literal words of God, passed to Muhammad (SAW) and later written down as a book. The muslim’s equivalent of the Old/New Testaments is the Hadith which is the collection of testaments of Muhammad’s (SAW) companions and others who were around the prophet during his lifetime.

    All that good comes from God, all that bad comes from myself. If theres mistakes in the above statements, they’re my own weaknesses. Wallahualam, God knows best.

    Peace be upon Muhammad (SAW), Jesus (AS), Moses (AS), Abraham (AS), all the prophets, and you.

  19. Hi G,

    It is true, God didn’t pick up a pen and write the Qur’an. Luckily, the Qur’an wasn’t revealed in ink form. God Almighty spoke those words through the angle Gabriel (AS) to Muhammad (SAW). Men later wrote it down verbatim. As far as the prophecy of Muhammad (SAW) in the Old Testament goes, no Muslim relies on those sort of prophecies for their faith in Islam. Our faith in Islam stems from the fact that it is the only pure monotheism left, that it is answers all our questions with rationale and logic, and that it provides intense peace and pleasure to our soul. The prophecies that Muslim nowadays try to point out in the Bible are all speculation – neither the Qur’an nor the Sunnah ever directly points to any biblical passage for anything whatsoever.

    – Farhan R.

  20. @ K – Nicely done, sir/madam. Jazakallah khair for your input, and Ramadan mubarak!

  21. Cool affair, didn’t thought this was going to be so interesting when I read the title.

  22. BTW Robert Beckford says he hopes that Islamic scholars will question and investigate their religion.
    I have watched who wrote the bible, first I dont see any of this mans evidence as concrete, nor do I consider him Christian.

    Their are many facts that prove the Bible as correct, he goes and finds one archeologist in Israel (The one all the doubters use) If this was a credible documentary why did it not have a debate with archeologists for and against the Bible?

    Also if the Bible was written by men they must have been really clever and be able to see into the future, and they must have been Gandi type ppl hehehe

    I think Robert Beckford is a joke have u seen his other work? God is Black etc?

  23. Beckford is a new world order puppet like obama. you know, one world goverment, currency, religion (no religion), culture etc…

    Zzz…

  24. “The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear”

    God created the universe with a big bang, and he is constantly expanding it. It was created to test the rebels who sided with Satan during the great feud. You and I
    The test is: Do we worship God alone and obey His word alone!
    OR do we decide to follow the steps of Satan and obey the words of men? The choice is ours. Even though, we rebelled and thought Satan could be a God beside God; to redeem our souls, God sent down to earth His words to uphold Alone.

    Every community gets a messenger, some we know about some we do not.
    After Abraham, God sent down The Torah (old testament), The Gospel (new testament) and The Quran (final testament).
    Abraham is considered as the Father of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He submitted to God Alone and obeyed only the Words of God. All religious practices came through Abraham. Duties such as the daily contact prayer, Zakat, fasting and hajj.

    Then God sent down the Torah through prophets and they all came with miracles as credentials, so we could believe. Moses and Aaron were given the statute book. Among Moses’ proofs was the parting of the red sea. The Jews were commanded by Moses: [Deuteronomy 4:1] “Israel, listen to the rules and laws I’m going to teach you, follow tem…”
    [Deuteronomy 4:2] “Do not add to what I’m commanding you, do not subtract from it either, instead, obey the commands of the Lord your God that I am giving you.

    However, many years later, the Jewish scholars (Rabbis) began collecting oral sayings and traditions falsely attributed to Moses through “hearsay”.
    These are know as the ‘Mishnah’, later, the rabbis added their commentaries, this is called the ‘Gemarrah’. Together, these books make the Jewish Talmud which became Judaism’s holiest book. Its authority takes precedence over the Torah.

    The Words of Men OVER the words of God!
    “…without the Talmud, we would not be able to understand passages in the Hebrew Bible” From: Rabbi Yahiel ben Joseph
    “…anyone who does not study the Talmud cannot understand scripture.” From: Rabbi Yahiel Ben Joseph
    There is a tiny Jewish sect, that are most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish Rabbis for upholding the words of God Alone.

    Then God sent down to Jesus the Gospel.
    To guide the Jews out of darkness and back into the light; Jesus the Messiah came with miracles too.
    “Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs and His credentials” [act 2:22]
    Here is what happened when the Jewish scholars asked Jesus why his disciples did not follow the oral traditions (Mishnah)

    [Mark 7:6-13] He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:” ‘these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. They worship Me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! … Thus you nullified the words of God by your tradition that you have handed down.

    They responded to Jesus by crucifying him.
    Even with profound miracles as credentials they could not believe. All that was asked of them was to devote the religion absolutely to God alone. But the human being is the most argumentative creatures (as God states in Quran)

    Thus Christianity was established. Unfortunately soon after Jesus’ lifetime, a man named Paul of Tarsus began proclaiming a very different message. He said that Jesus came to him and was in the form of God, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.” In other words that Jesus was God.

    Paul’s Gospel was very different from Jesus’ gospel. In 325 A.D Christianity scholars (priests, etc) Convened at the Nicene conference to vote on what ‘Christianity’ was going to be. They decided which gospels would be in the bible and which not. To this day the Gospel of Jesus is nowhere to be found.
    Thus it is incomplete. Also, the scholars invented the ‘trinity doctrine’, which officially deified Jesus.
    Like the Children of Israel, Christian scholars corrupted their religion by following the word of men. If they adhered to the word of God Alone they would realize:
    [Mathew 7:21] “Non of those who call me ‘Lord’ will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven.”
    Today the original Torah & Gospel are either fragmented or lost.

    Thus God sent another Prophet with the Quran, God’s final testament.
    Now instead of complication of scriptures revealed over a thousand years, we have one complete scripture. Here is what the Quran says about upholding the word of God

    [6:38]”… We did not leave anything out of this book…”

    [6:114] “Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.”

    [18:27] “You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord’s scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it”

    45:6] These are God’s revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
    [45:7] Woe to every fabricator, guilty

    It is clear only God’s words are to be followed
    About 200 years after the death of Muhammed, Islamic scholars began collecting oral sayings and traditions falsely attributed to Muhammad through “hearsay”. These books are called Hadith & Sunnah’s of Prophet Mohammad.
    In Hebrew, they are called Mishnah & Gemarrah of Prophet Mohammad. The Islamic equivalent of the Talmud.

    YES! They did the EXACT SAME THING!
    They follow the word of men like the Jews and Christians before them. Muslim argue in favor of these man-made books. They justify following them by saying “We have to obey the messenger”
    Yes, but obeying the messenger is obeying the Quran! Wheras obeying Hadith and Sunna is obeying Bukhari, Hanbal and Achmed.

    69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe.

    Muhammad Forbidden from Issuing 
Any Religious Teachings
    [69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings.
    [69:45] We would have punished him.
    [69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him.

    Ironically, even their Hadith forbid Hadith.
    The Prophet said, “Do not write down anything from me EXCEPT THE QURAN” [achmed, vol1, page 171 and Sahih Muslim]
    This Hadith states that the Prophet maintained his anti-hadith stand until death. [Achmed, vol 1, page 192]

    In fact, on Judgement day Muhammad will say [25:30] … “My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran.”
    They even try to justify the Sunnah ‘by claming it is the only ways muslim know how to perform the daily Salat. Eventhough all religious practices came from Abraham not Muhammad.

    [16:123] Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.

    [21:72] And we granted him Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them both righteous.
    [21:73] We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.

    In other words, all religious practices was established before Muhammad.

    [17:73] They almost diverted you from the revelations we have given you. They wanted you to fabricate something else, in order to consider you a friend.

    [17:77] This has been consistently the case with all the messengers that we sent before you, and you will find that our system never changes.

    So if following the words of men is forbidden for the Jews and Christians, then it is also forbidden for Muslim because God’s Law is unchangeable.

    [48:23] Such is GOD’s system throughout history, and you will find that GOD’s system is unchangeable.

    In fact, the Quran explains why Jews, Christians & Muslim’s follow the word of men

    [6:112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet – human and jinn devils – to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

    [6:113] This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.

    So those who do not believe in the hereafter, will not uphold the word of God, because they do not believe they will be held accountable they are disbelievers!

    Do you choose salvation or retribution?
    Do you choose God or Satan?
    The choice is yours.

    How do I know the Quran is the truth? Because God embedded a math code within the Quran that proves it is from Him!

    Assalamu Alaikum

  25. There is no infallible book. Only God (Allah) is worthy of such stature. How can a Book be raised to the level of Allah Himself? And isn’t an infallible Book pointless if it’s readers are somewhat fallible? Praise be to God Himself! The Quran is awesome, but it is not Allah.

  26. Hello G,

    It’s been a while. I am trying to revamp this blog, and so, 2 years later (and hopefully 2 years wiser) I want to address everything you wrote her with a clean slate, insha’Allah, starting with your very first comment.

    You say that about 50% of the Qur’an is taken from previously existing Judeo-Christian sources. First of all, that is a pretty random number, and I am pretty sure it is unvalidated. Second, I am assuming your reasoning is that since the Qur’an talks about some of the same people that the Bible does, such as Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, etc., as well as (at least superficially) similar doctrines and concepts such as sin, this must have all come from the Bible. However, you are taking an atheist’s point of view. If you believe in God, then I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that just as God sent revelations to his previous prophets, some of which mentioned the same people or concepts, the Qur’an could be just another revelation from the same source (God) in which God talks repeats the same stories again as he repeated in previous scriptures. Unless you are prepared to say that Matthew copied the Torah because it mentions Old Testament ideas and concepts, you cannot say the same about the Qur’an.

    You say: “all i need to say to you, concerning the infallibility of the qu’ran, is that muhamad was a man, therefore he was also untrustworhty…” Well, all of God’s human messengers were just that – human. Therefore, I would say Muhammad (SAW) as a human was just about as reliable as any of God’s prophets were, and as you said, God knew who he was choosing and would have chosen the best, so there is no point bringing this up. Islam says Jesus was a human, too, not God, so the Christian argument that he was perfect and therefore the most trustworthy doesn’t really hold water unless you prove Jesus was God. Also, take 2 Corinthians 11:14 and look at Paul himself before pointing fingers at others. Lastly, just because the Qur’an contradicts the New Testament doesn’t mean that the Qur’an is false. Islam says the New Testament is corrupted, and Christians tend to be confused about the matter themselves in general. God is not bound by time, and I think it makes sense that if people changed the scriptures he could send down new revelations.

    You say: “oh, and I can’t prove that the qu’ran isnt ” complete, perfect, and infallible, in every sense of the word” jst in the same way that NOONE can prove that God himself, and I’m not talkin about his creation, exists” Well, actually, if you cannot prove the Qur’an to be imperfect in even a single way, not even a single fault, while not being able to prove the Bible to be perfect, then I don’t know why you are so adamant about Islam being wrong without giving it a proper look. Although not being able to find a fault with something (like with the Qur’an) doesn’t necessarily prove infallibility or divine origin, not being able to defend or properly explain supposed faults (like with the Bible) should raise a flag or two in most situations.

    You may have misunderstood a comment I made about proving God exists. What I meant is that if God didn’t leave signs and revelations for us on Earth and in our lives and experiences to point us in the right direction, then why would He expect us to know about Him? You also say that you cannot see Muhammad (SAW) being a messenger from God because he didn’t live a life like Jesus did. Well, first of all, I challenge you to find something that Muhammad (SAW) did that is condemned in the Bible. You may scrape something out of the New Testament, but that would be just proof of the Bible’s inherent contradiction as everything Muhammad (SAW) did is certainly held legitimate by the Old Testament’s standards. Actually, it is ironic that you bring this up, because according the the Old Testament Muhammad (SAW) led a life more pious than most of the prophets and messengers and divinely-favored individuals of the Old Testament – so much so that Muslims considers parts of the Old Testament as slander and lies against the noble prophets of God. If you read the Qur’an, you will see that the stories of the prophets are only similar in name – the prophets in Islam never did the evils that the Bible says they did, such as Noah getting drunk and cursing his descendants because his son saw him naked (Genesis 9:20-25), Solomon having hundreds of wives and even concubines – and even then from tribes and people that God made off-limits (1 Kings 11:1-3), etc.

    I don’t refute whatever Moses said is from God, but the question is proving what Moses would have really said is from God. You say: “I believe that man is fallible and can corrupt, however don’t you think that God would have chosen who he wanted to write his books carefully, and let us not forget that the Jews are incredibly devout to guard and preserve the authenticity of their scriptures by not allowing lay people near them?” Yet, you seem to refuse to apply this logic to the Qur’an and the Muslims? Why is that? You asked what was Muhammad (SAW) for if the Qur’an came directly from God – well, to the best of our knowledge, Muhammad was the medium through which the Qur’an came to everyone else, and a perfect example of how to practice the teachings of the Qur’an and apply it to our lives. Asking that is like asking why did God send down any prophet? The Pericope de Adultera, you say, contradicts the Qur’an, but you fail to realize that it also contradicts God’s revelations in the Old Testament. As far as I am concerned, the obligation is on Christians to explain why God would change His mind in the first place, and why changing it back to stoning would be in any way incorrect. Also, for your information, Islam teaches that any adulterer in a legitimate Islamic society may be stored, not just women, and Muhammad (SAW) had both men and women receive justice according the their merits, not their gender.

    As far is Islam on the topic of God and His love and connection with us, that is way too large of a topic for me to address. I implore you to read the following links by those much wiser than me on the topic:

    http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=17124&CATE=1431

    http://www.sultan.org/articles/god.html

    You say: “When Jesus fullfilled the prophesy of the prophet Isaih of dying as a sacrifice for sin, the ultimate burnt offering, then why is it that Muhamad was needed?” Well, the whole point is that the stories presented by the Bible, including the supposed sacrifice of Jesus, is being called into question. A major point of Islam is that history didn’t really go down the way the Bible says it did.

    As far as Beckford’s documentary goes, I don’t take anything he says to be factual – please give me more intellectual credit than that. I cannot say how I took his material back in 2008, but today I take it as a mixture of possibilities and hypotheses, each holding different levels of credibility, and each in truth independent of Beckford as an individual. He didn’t make it up, he just took a camera and talked to the scholars and I presume made money notoriety off the show. We can address each segment individually if you are up for it.

    You say: “Secondly, I’d like to say that all over the world women are stoned to death under the laws of islam for not being a virgin before their wedding night, even if they are raped!!how injust is that? NOWHERE in the law of moses does it set such a command so unjust, moreover in the books of moses both male and female adulterers are punished, NOT jus the woman like you tried to add was only in the Bible and not the Qu’ran.” Yes, well nowhere in Islam are “honor killings” like that mentioned, either. It is a cultural phenomenon that uses Islam as an excuse for validation. And like I said, Islam says that men and women are both equally bound by the law and are equally punished, and the example of Muhammad (SAW) and the early Muslims indicate as much.

    I would actually like to quote what I replied to your comment back then: “Nowhere does it say in Islam that a bride who isn’t a virgin on her wedding night deserves to be stoned. I challenge you, G, to find me where it says that. I don’t care if other people do it in the name of Islam – people have raped and murdered in the name of Jesus, but that doesn’t mean anything. You must be confusing the Qur’an with the Bible:“But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22:20-21) By the way, what exactly do you believe God Almighty intended to be the proof of virginity? I was under the impression that there is no surefire method, since even the hymen can break for a variety of reasons other than sexual intercourse…I wonder how many women got stoned to death for perhaps performing strenuous chores…?”

    Most Muslims may ignorantly talk about hating Jews, but I believe what they really mean is that they feel anger towards Israel and its crimes against humanity in regards to Palestine. Muslims are also just like any other people and can act emotionally and stupidly quite often, and often do so. So please, don’t judge an entire religion by the ones who cannot refrain themselves from acting like that, or by the ones who commit crimes and atrocities ignorantly in the name of Islam despite those actions being in in stark opposition to what Islam teaches. but rather judge us by the best of us and more importantly by the teachings of our religion itself. Judge Muslims why what makes a Muslim a Muslim, not what some Muslims do.

    You say: “With regards to the old testament prophets such as King Solomon, no i do not regect what they say, i simply see them as being meer human beings who made mistakes like the rest of us. That is not to discredit their beautiful writings, it just mean i simply don’t take them as my “lord and saviour”” And why cannot you extend this logic to Muhammad (SAW), regardless of whether he even sinned or not?

    Also, Islam doesn’t make you a prisoner of law, but rather it makes you liberated from false misconceptions and paradigms about yourself and the world, and teaches you best how to lead your lives to accomplish your finest. You may say what you said because Christianity doesn’t have laws, but Christianity lacking laws doesn’t make it better or more righteous – it just makes it even more confusing and contradictory to the Old Testament, and it certainly doesn’t mean anything if you cannot prove the Bible is from God in the first place.

    You said: “Yeh you are right, u don’t know me at all, and when you said: You don’t even know how it feels to follow God’s Commandments and live in a way that is pleasing to Him. You just think that anything you do is fine because you are Christian, and that you don’t have to live by any law or moral standard; of course, then you end up living by Paul’s teachings anyways, because they are more convenient than biblical laws. I found this highly offensive as, dispite this theological debate online, and despite whatever theological arguments i have got into with muslims in the past, i treat them with the same love and respect Christ asked me to, and this doesnt mean i have to compramise my standards and agree with everything they say in debates” Yeah I could definitely have phrased that better, not to mention I sound like an arrogant snot. I am sorry about my attitude back in 2008 – it is apparent that I was blinded by a pride and sense of righteousness as a newly reverted Muslim with his own website. I apologize for that and I hope that I am doing better now on that then I was back then. However, the point I was trying to make was that Christians don’t have commandments to follow the way that Muslims or Jews do, and that Christians live in confidence that whatever they do, as long as they believe in Christ they will be in Heaven. Despite that, Christians tend to follow whatever Paul said and take his writings as moral standards.

    Just as you say many Christians don’t live up to Chrsitianity, the same can be said about Islam. If you really don’t take the media’s word for it, I hope you have found true Islam via direct experience in the last 2 years. Also, since you asked, I read both the NIV and NKJV versions of the Bible.

    You say: “well, if you’re going to use that line of logic, i can also refer back to you comment you made about Muhammad being prophesised about in the old testament… you too are “making connections in order to justify your beliefs”.” This is true, I admit. However, Muslims don’t take these “connections” to be 100% legitimate, but rather we see it as just guesswork. We don’t use the Bible to support our religions, but sometimes we cannot help but see a potential connection and make a note of it’s possible legitimacy. In the end, we don’t use it as a foundation for anything (or at least, I hope no one does). The Prophet (SAW) certainly never did.

    By the way, an English translation is perfectly fine. I recommend one by Abdullah Yusuf Ali or M.A.S. Abdel Haleem from Oxford. Whatever you chose, make sure it has commentary so you are given proper context. I hope you the best with that!

    As far as prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament go, that merits another article altogether. True, Jews wouldn’t look for ways to validate Christ, but likewise many zealous Christians would interpret passages incorrectly in order to legitimize their faith.

    In all, sorry if I offended you or mistreated you in our correspondence, and I hope we can continue this. I hope all is well with you and school and life in general!

    God help us all.

    Farhan R.

  27. @ Charl

    I agree, Islamic scholars should question and investigate Islam, as should non-Muslims. I believe they have, and ample material is available on the fruits of their efforts.

    I agree, the documentary could have done a better job presenting both sides of each argument, and there was an obvious spin or bias. That is why I said that everyone should do their own investigation instead of just relying on Beckford. Beckford is definitely not someone I would use settle any issue.

    Thanks for your comment!

  28. @ diollaordelve – I am glad you got something out of it!

  29. @ Lord J

    I cannot comment on that to be honest, since I don’t know too much about those kind of things, but I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

  30. @ mikewalk99

    A book can be infallible in that there is no errors or contradictions in it, and if it is written by a perfect being like God than such there shouldn’t be a problem. Saying a book is not contradictory to the truth or that it doesn’t contain an error because it is written by God does not make it equal to God Himself. Authorship does not imply equality. I don’t see why a the Qur’an being infallible would be pointless – would you rather have an infallible guide to Allah’s pleasure or an imperfect and incorrect guide to seeking His pleasure? Do you think an imperfect God would leave you with anything but the best possible guidance for those who seek Him? 🙂

  31. @ Lisette

    Jazakallah khair for that nice explanation! Although I would like to add that I am hesitant to say that we took Satan as a God to replace the True God…

    And yes, the mathematical findings of the Qur’an are quite interesting. My favorite is the check-bit code in the Qur’an, also referred to as the Odd-Even Miracle or the Binary Checksum Miracle! Yours?

  32. It would be interesting to see how Dr. Beckford reacts to “Grandpa Was A Deity” (2011) which touches upon the evolution of Hebrews from India to Eastern Europe, as viewed by one set of yDNA markers and well documented traditions; “Genesis of Genesis” (2012) which deals with the math of the bible, the reason for the Patriarch ages, and links them to the ancient British stone circles, the pyramids, and astronomy which evolved into the Hebrew Calendar, and then continued, when that calendar was reset to become our Western calendar; finally, “Saint Paul’s Joke” — two copies of which were requested by the Vatican Archivist months BEFORE actual publication — and shows that, if Christian Revelation and Judgment is true, the vast majority of ‘devout’ Christians will fail to make the cut. At the same time, it shows the possibility that Davidic prophecy is true, and will be finalized by 2064 … if we accept the thousand year old Christian Prophecies of Saint Malachy, which finish with the destriuction of Rome after the current pope. To date, Saint Malachy has a near perfect prediction history — far better than Nostradamus.

  33. Could someone explain when the Kabaah was built ? I am a bit confused .

    Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
    Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Which mosque was built first?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Haram.” I asked, “Which (was built) next?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem).” I asked, “What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
    Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636
    The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.
    If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the hadith is wrong.
    The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:
    The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons

  34. Does this mean that the Quran is corrupted ? I need to know ..please help.
    Later Corruption of the Text of the Qur’an?
    The text we have today is not even Uthman’s Revised Version of the Qur’an, but it incorporates changes by Al-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf Al-Thakafi.
    Al-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf Al-Thakafi, who lived in the years A.D. 660-714, was a teacher of Arabic language in the city of Taif. Then he joined the military and became the most powerful person during the reign of Caliph Abd al-Malik Ibn Marawan and after him his son Al-Waleed Ibn Abd al-Malik. Because Al-Hajjaj taught Arabic, he gave himself the liberty to change several words of Caliph Uthman’s Koran, which is an indication that he did not believe that the Koran was verbally inspired or was inscribed in a “tablet preserved.”
    We will mention but a few of the words Al-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf Al-Thakafi changed:
    (1) In Surat Yunus 10:22, he changed the word yanshorokom, which means “spread you,” to yousayerokom, which means “makes you to go on.”
    (2) In Surat Ash-Shuara 26:116, he changed the word Al-Mukhrageen, which means “the cast out,” to Al-Margoomeen, which means “those who are to be stoned [to death].”
    (3) In Surat Ash-Shuara 26:167, he changed the word Min Al-Margoomeen, which means “those who are to be stoned to death,” to Al-Mukhrageen, which means “those who will assuredly be cast out.”
    (4) In Surat Muhammad 47:15, he changed the word yasen, which is poor Arabic to Asen, which means “unpolluted.”
    (5) In Surat Al-Hadid 57:7, he changed the word wataqu, which means “feared Allah,” to Wa-anfaqu, which means “spend in charity.”

  35. Dear G..

    I would just only comment on your CLEAR mistake quoting BIBLE VERSES

    ”and why is it that after Jesus allowed the adulterous woman in John to “go forth and sin no more” preventing her from being stoned to death, does Muhamad then command that women should be stoned to death, that looks like a contradiction in Gods plan to me,”

    you should read footnotes in NIV and KJV modern bibles base on modern biblical scholars research saying on that verses telling that the verses is not original and was not found in the early manuscript.

    Also if you read you bible stoning is commanded by god for adulterous, read it again dude. Seems you dont event know your bible.

    So conclusion is. BIBLE has so many FAKE INSERTION.

    Best Regards,

    Luqman

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